Cell to Singularity is an idle science game about the evolution of life on Earth.

This is a lie. It is a total time suck.

I evolved tetrapods!

Cell to Singularity is an idle science game about the evolution of life on Earth.

This is a lie. It is a total time suck.

I evolved tetrapods!

Quote by dr3n:

its a lack of belief..

it always gets me that this lack of belief can be a consuming for some of them

dr3n... Are you saying that the universe will expand and exist for infinite time when you call it infinite? That I don't have a problem with. Where I'm stucking on this is your claim that every possible thing is happining right now in the universe (because if it's infinite size then all posibilities must happen at every moment) or that everthing possible has occured becuse the time of the universe is infinite (in this case you can't have a starting point because no matter where we are in the timeline an infinite amout of time hasn't happened yet so all possibilities can not have occured yet).

As for the Athist argument I recall it well (several actually), ypu were quite dogmatic

Quote by Quaektem:

dr3n... Are you saying that the universe will expand and exist for infinite time when you call it infinite? That I don't have a problem with

yes.. as far as i can get my head around it.. essentially the universe is infinite because nothing (that we know of.. yet) can move quicker than the speed *it* is currently expanding.. its like racing an f1 car with a slug.. nothing can escape "the universe" to look back at *it* because it will (as far as i can get my around) will always expand away from you in every direction no matter how close to the "edge" you could ever get to.. that is - if an edge even exists..

its not my claim about the infinite possibilities thing.. its an established theory where people with tefal heads have theorised that if you have an infinite number of variables - then mathematically, over an infinite amount of time - everything that can will.. and yeah i agree about what you say in regards to possibilities having not occurred "yet", totally.. i also admit that its impossible to wrap your head around infinity being a very, very long time.. for example the version of you that chose to put green socks on (today) might not happen for another 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years.. which when you think about it, is still only comparable to the blink of an eye when it comes to infinity.. then it might take the same amount of time for you to have a version of you where you dont put any socks on at all.. the point is, it doesnt matter what the gap is between events, because when you have infinite time, then the concept of infinity itself negates the value of time and renders it pointless.

Quote by dr3n:

yes.. as far as i can get my head around it.. essentially the universe is infinite because nothing (that we know of.. yet) can move quicker than the speed *it* is currently expanding.. its like racing an f1 car with a slug.. nothing can escape "the universe" to look back at *it* because it will (as far as i can get my around) will always expand away from you in every direction no matter how close to the "edge" you could ever get to.. that is - if an edge even exists..

Ok... the rate of expansion is less than the speed of light or the night sky would be far less interesting. Given that it is theoretically possible to get to the edge (a mathematical certainty if the universe exists indefinitely).

Quote by dr3n:

its not my claim about the infinite possibilities thing.. its an established theory where people with tefal heads have theorised that if you have an infinite number of variables - then mathematically, over an infinite amount of time - everything that can will.. and yeah i agree about what you say in regards to possibilities having not occurred "yet", totally.. i also admit that its impossible to wrap your head around infinity being a very, very long time.. for example the version of you that chose to put green socks on (today) might not happen for another years.. which when you think about it, is still only comparable to the blink of an eye when it comes to infinity..

Trust me, you are not even close to the enumerating the number of zeros you would have to put behind a one to come close to that inevitability. Where I come from is that we have a guess as to when the universe started. We are a very small fraction of years into your theoretical number (unless you want to debate the Big Bang or introduce the yo-yo universe theory into the mix... but either will just send us down another tangent).

Quote by dr3n:

the point is, it doesnt matter what the gap is between events, because when you have infinite time, then the concept of infinity itself negates the value of time and renders it pointless.

Not quite useless. That's like saying a plane negates lines, or that lines negate points because they are infinitely smaller than the whole.

I'm going to be going out on a personal theoretical limb here... and certainly deviating from hard science... but your comment solidly demands a response. Again, this is not science, just crap that has floated into my conscious. Take it as such and be kind to the pathetic ramblings.

If you are defining with an infinite dimension, you are identifying a higher dimension. An infinite number of points creates a line. An infinite number of lines compose a plane. An infinite number of planes compose depth. It's not a googleplex of planes, it's an infinite amount of them (and as I get older I am trying to refer to infinity as a number even peripherally... it's not.) If we have infinite time, (and our understanding of time is the fourth dimension) you are basically saying that we live in a five dimensional universe (I have had the number at seven... but we'd have to share a few drinks before that logic would work ). At that point you are flirting with the multiverse theory where each decision creates a separate universe. That's the realm where you could say one particularly evolved monkey *did* write Hamlet, and in an infinite amount of universes many other monkeys did in a number of ways.

Now, the reason time isn't pointless (to us) is that we are not able to observe beyond the fourth dimension (again, a few drinks... fifth, but that gets complicated and I'm pretty sure when sober I'm wrong) Therefore, to us, the fourth dimension has to be as relevant as the third, second and first. Just a nugget to throw out there, a three dimensional object can have length, width and time (like a reflection or a movie.. in the fourth dimension we can lay out the movie reel and observe every cel at once.) the dimensions are not restricted to a hierarchy of order. It's easy to think of a line going in any direction, even a point observed over time is a line.

Why does this argument of yours make sense? In a plane, every conceivable (and inconceivable) line exists. Same for planes in a three dimensional space. The issue I have about it is that (in that theory) our universe (the scientifically observable one) and all of us living in it are not in an infinite universe. We are one 'line' in vase 'plane'... which may be true, but to think that jumps farther into Metaphysics than this Witch is willing to buy into.

To bring it back, life (never-mind life complex enough to type on an electronic device it invented that will send electrons across the globe to dozens of people) is definable, observable, but we know nothing about what life really is, and to leave it up to random chance a millennia ago (despite odds devastatingly overwhelming as I presented earlier) is as lazy an answer than saying 'God did it', perhaps more so.

If it gives you any comfort, the universe(s) placed your conscious in your particular body at this point in time so that I might vex you on occasion. Whether divine retribution, or the most extraordinarily unfortunate of luck I can't say... but I'm enjoying the talk anyway. I do appreciate the clarification on your understanding the infinite universe, certainly helps to focus the debate.

Quote by Quaektem:

Ok... the rate of expansion is less than the speed of light or the night sky would be far less interesting.

no.. the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.. Special relativity which applies to the expansion of the universe doesn't care about the speed limits of things that are in front of your nose..

The Hubble constant: http://w.astro.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/hubble.html