Question about Heaven & Hell

0

8:48 pm 25/06/2012

HariSeldon

Quote by Viscera:

To set the "Christian" perspective straight, God has a place for all those who want to spend eternity with Him. He sets the conditions, you must believe in the process He has deemed as necessary to enter Heaven. Why is that so outrageous? Doesn't a government decide how and how many people can enter it's country? Doesn't a college decide you must have met some conditions to be part of the student body? These guidelines are accepted by us, but we rail away as it being "unfair" the god might say there are requirements to entering his final destination.

No what is called unfair and far worse is when some religions, including many christian ones say that if you don't follow their process which only involves declaring your love for God you not only don't go to heaven but are instead sentenced to an eternity of burning agony.

You have to meet certain guidelines to enter a college. Getting a 1070/2400 on your SATs just means you'll be asking people if they want fries. It doesn't mean you'll spend all of time sitting in the deep fryer.

0

8:48 pm 25/06/2012

Quaektem

Quote by thecrookedman:

I like the name "Summerland".

It's a very new term for an idea that combines how various cultures view the afterlife. The concept itself is sill very much debated and I don't know anyone that has all the answers about it.

0

8:50 pm 25/06/2012

Quaektem

Quote by HariSeldon:

You have to meet certain guidelines to enter a college. Getting a 1070/2400 on your SATs just means you'll be asking people if they want fries. It doesn't mean you'll spend all of time sitting in the deep fryer.
!

For a second there I was going to ask what was up with a SAT of 1070 being bad... but it seems they upped the cap from 1600 to 2400 since I took it

0

9:12 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

Quote by HariSeldon:

Quote by Viscera:

To set the "Christian" perspective straight, God has a place for all those who want to spend eternity with Him. He sets the conditions, you must believe in the process He has deemed as necessary to enter Heaven. Why is that so outrageous? Doesn't a government decide how and how many people can enter it's country? Doesn't a college decide you must have met some conditions to be part of the student body? These guidelines are accepted by us, but we rail away as it being "unfair" the god might say there are requirements to entering his final destination.

No what is called unfair and far worse is when some religions, including many christian ones say that if you don't follow their process which only involves declaring your love for God you not only don't go to heaven but are instead sentenced to an eternity of burning agony.

You have to meet certain guidelines to enter a college. Getting a 1070/2400 on your SATs just means you'll be asking people if they want fries. It doesn't mean you'll spend all of time sitting in the deep fryer.

and there is the difference between "religion" and a Biblical faith. The Bible doesn't claim there is any other "requirement" then recognizing Christ for who He claims to be, and accepting what He says as true.

0

9:16 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

0

9:27 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

Quote by Quaektem:

Quote by Viscera:

DJ, if you believe there is no heaven or hell, what happens to those who commit crimes here and get away with it?

Considering that a mass murderer that has a calling to Christ before he dies attains a spot in heaven where someone who did good works there whole life and was not called goes to hell I believe negates the premise of this question.

Thus the reason that to say that God only allows those who are "good" into his heaven isn't biblical. Then the idea of justification through good works is refuted. Because, who determines what is a "good work" God says we all fall short

Quote by Romans 3:23:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

, so, if you as a sinner expect God to be merciful to you according to your "evening out" your good vs bad deeds, vs the idea that when you come to realize that your life has been lived selfishly, incorrectly and at odds with God, you can turn away from your "wicked" ways and ask for forgiveness. I don't know anyone who hasn't screwed up and needed to be forgiven

0

9:32 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

well I obviously don't agree with the "idea" that Stalin and God are equal in righteousness, but somehow I didn't think the gratuitous cheap shot wasn't going to be leveled here, *sigh*

0

9:32 pm 25/06/2012

Quaektem

I understand all that. Where does the question you posed to DJ fall in line with the concept that breaking or obeying man's laws should have anything to do with what happens in the afterlife? The Christian God only hands out punishment or salvation for one thing.

0

9:35 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

man's laws aren't the yardstick for salvation, there are certainly immoral laws, (abortion being legal, usury) and God knows we can't, again are incapable, of keeping the law perfectly, that is the whole lesson of the OT. So the idea you don't wear your seat belt doesn't equate with recognizing God for who he is

0

9:35 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Viscera:

well I obviously don't agree with the "idea" that Stalin and God are equal in righteousness, but somehow I didn't think the gratuitous cheap shot wasn't going to be leveled here, *sigh*

I didn't mean it as a cheap shot and frankly, I see no humor in it. I posted it because the logic seems unassailable to me. Two despots create a punishment, determine criteria for its application, then step aside and say that it's really up to victim to decide.

0

9:36 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

I understand that it seems similar, but do you really think those who believe in God would find no offense in it?

0

9:38 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

and Stalin didn't allow those who disagreed to leave, somehow the Russians I know, who had lived under that regime, doesn't agree with that characterizations

0

9:39 pm 25/06/2012

Quaektem

Quote by Viscera:

man's laws aren't the yardstick for salvation, there are certainly immoral laws, (abortion being legal, usury) and God knows we can't, again are incapable, of keeping the law perfectly, that is the whole lesson of the OT. So the idea you don't wear your seat belt doesn't equate with recognizing God for who he is

Again, I understand that... what I don't understand is the premise to this question:

Quote:

DJ, if you believe there is no heaven or hell, what happens to those who commit crimes here and get away with it?

Or are you not asking that from a Christian perspective?

0

9:40 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

no, I'm asking from a perspective of someone who doesn't believe it's real. I know the "Christian" perspective

-1

9:41 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Viscera:

I understand that it seems similar, but do you really think those who believe in God would find no offense in it?

I don't care whether they're offended. Are they concerned with the fact that I might be offended (which I am not) that they believe that I am to be subjected to eternity of torment because I don't believe in their imaginary friend?

1

9:42 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Viscera:

and Stalin didn't allow those who disagreed to leave, somehow the Russians I know, who had lived under that regime, doesn't agree with that characterizations

Does your god allow me to leave? No, it's Moscow or the gulag. There is no other choice.

0

9:42 pm 25/06/2012

Quaektem

so you brought all this up to bring Christians into the discussion only to deliberately offend them?

Pretty shitty.

1

9:42 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

Quote by thecrookedman:

Quote by Viscera:

I understand that it seems similar, but do you really think those who believe in God would find no offense in it?

I don't care whether they're offended. Are they concerned with the fact that I might be offended (which I am not) that they believe that I am to be subjected to eternity of torment because I don't believe in their imaginary friend?

I am concerned. That's why I don't engage in as aggressive a manner as I might.

0

9:44 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Quaektem:

so you brought all this up to bring Christians into the discussion only to deliberately offend them?

Pretty shitty.

I did not set out to deliberately offend anyone. Why is belief in the supernatural to be treated with kid gloves when we are free to discuss the economy, politics, and sport like adults?

0

9:44 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

Quote by thecrookedman:

Quote by Viscera:

and Stalin didn't allow those who disagreed to leave, somehow the Russians I know, who had lived under that regime, doesn't agree with that characterizations

Does your god allow me to leave? No, it's Moscow or the gulag. There is no other choice.

you are incorrect, you have the information in front of you, you are deciding to discard it. that seems like a being/God/person who is willing to have you insult and demean him to satisfy your iwn pov, and allow you to decide where the destination is. Unfortunately, if the process is as described in the Bible, you're taking issue with the fact that you aren't part of the policy making process of where the destination is

1

9:45 pm 25/06/2012

Quaektem

Quote by thecrookedman:

Does your god allow me to leave? No, it's Moscow or the gulag. There is no other choice.

This is a fallacy. If you don't believe in God then you don't believe there is anything to 'leave' or even a punishment.... hell there is no other choice.

1

9:46 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Quaektem:

This is a fallacy. If you don't believe in God then you don't believe there is anything to 'leave' or even a punishment.... hell there is no other choice.

I'm well aware it's all nonsense, but I reject that someone might insult my intelligence by pretending that I have a choice to be left alone in their cosmic scheme.

0

9:46 pm 25/06/2012

Viscera

Quote by thecrookedman:

Quote by Quaektem:

so you brought all this up to bring Christians into the discussion only to deliberately offend them?

Pretty shitty.

I did not set out to deliberately offend anyone. Why is belief in the supernatural to be treated with kid gloves when we are free to discuss the economy, politics, and sport like adults?

it's not, but just as I could say that liberals are delusional asshats that want to govt to make them feel better about their supposed comassion by taking someone else s money to solve problems their policies created, I don't as that would solve nothing

0

9:48 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Viscera:

it's not, but just as I could say that liberals are delusional asshats...

Surely you understand the difference between criticizing and ridiculing a bad idea and the person who holds it?

0

9:50 pm 25/06/2012

thecrookedman

Quote by Viscera:

you are incorrect, you have the information in front of you, you are deciding to discard it. that seems like a being/God/person who is willing to have you insult and demean him to satisfy your iwn pov, and allow you to decide where the destination is. Unfortunately, if the process is as described in the Bible, you're taking issue with the fact that you aren't part of the policy making process of where the destination is

That does nothing to disprove the idea that your god, like Stalin, does not permit me to leave, i.e. to die and be destroyed. I must spend eternity in one of his hells: "Heaven" or "Hell".