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Why does God demand so much violence and war of the Jewish nation?

17 comments, 179 views, posted 5:20 pm 31/07/2012 in Religion by Viscera
Viscera has 11737 posts, 1446 threads, 743 points, location: 1123 6536 5321
Lord of Glencoe

One of the most difficult episodes for us to handle as people who live on this side of the New Testament are the Old Testament records of what is called the herem. This is where God calls Israel to embark in what we could call a holy war against the Canaanites. He tells them to go in there and wipe out everyone—men, women, and children. They were forbidden to take prisoners and were to utterly destroy and put the ban, or curse, upon this land before they occupied it for themselves.
When we look at that, we shrink in horror at the degree of violence that is not only tolerated but seemingly commanded by God in that circumstance. Critical scholars in the twentieth century have pointed to that kind of story in the Old Testament as a clear example that this couldn’t be the revealed Word of God. They say that this is the case where some bloodthirsty, ancient, seminomadic Hebrews tried to appeal to their deity to sanction their violent acts and that we have to reject that as not being supernaturally inspired interpretations of history.

Comments

2
6:31 pm 31/07/2012

tricpe

"Jewish" is not a nation, rather a relgious group

1
7:35 pm 31/07/2012

Viscera

back in OT times, they were a nation. And to be precise, the Israelis might argue with that

article here

2
10:57 pm 31/07/2012

Flee

Quote by Viscera:
He tells them to go in there and wipe out everyone—men, women, and children.


Pretty much sums up why my faith is not in God. Before faith, you have to respect. I can't respect that request.

3
11:45 pm 31/07/2012

Quaektem

Like the Crusades, I believe this was a time when 'Man' put himself between 'God' and the people putting forth a message not truly of the divine...

But being neither Jewish nor Christian it's just an outsider's opinion.

0
12:27 pm 01/08/2012

Viscera

well, the unpopular response is, God has to judge wickedness. I find it funny that people who have no account of what the Canaanites crimes were can sit and say they deserved to live. What if they were a nation of pedophiles (I have read many comments on this site that pedophiles don't deserve to live) what if they were mass murderers or as stated in the article, sacrificed their children in religious observations to other gods? The reality is, all of us have been rebellious and gone against God at some time, (If not all the time) and we all deserve to be judged wicked. But because He enacts judgement on a group all at once he is unfair? Not able to be respected? So when we decided to sweep in and destroy Nazi Germany and hold the populous of the nation accountable for it's leaders actions as well, were we (the allies) unrighteous? Dropping the bomb on Japan....twice? Was that unfair?The atom bomb killed the people, not the governors. Guess I don;t understand the selective application of who is allowed to meet out justice

1
12:52 pm 01/08/2012

tricpe

Quote by Viscera:
What if they were a nation of pedophiles ... sacrificed their children in religious observations to other gods?

What if the Father of God that you yourself worship demanded from His own chosen one to sacrifice his son? Also, what if the Father of God that you yourself worship chose His people by willingness of daughters to have sex with their father?

Quote by Viscera:
Dropping the bomb on Japan....twice? Was that unfair?

Yes, it was!

Quote by Viscera:
...pedophiles don't deserve to live...

In the end, I think She put things nicely in the first place: those who deserve to die - die.

1
2:07 pm 01/08/2012

Viscera

I guess I'm confused by some of your answers. Who is she?

Quote by tricpe:
What if the Father of God that you yourself worship demanded from His own chosen one to sacrifice his son?


I'm assuming Christ is your reference, His sacrifice was volitional, no one forced him o do that. He says I lay my life down, no one takes it from me.

Quote by John 10:18:
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
Quote by tricpe:
Also, what if the Father of God that you yourself worship chose His people by willingness of daughters to have sex with their father?


I'm not sure where you are referring to (not being argumentative, don't know the reference)

1
5:06 pm 01/08/2012

Quaektem

Quote by Viscera:
Guess I don;t understand the selective application of who is allowed to meet out justice



God had a regular record of handing out justice when it suited Him to do so. Whether or not he commanded the Jews to participate in genocide is not for me to judge, but given how often Christ has been used as a banner over heinous acts throughout history it seems to me (as an outsider) that it is not implausible that the Israelites fell into the same 'trap'. Because it is there religious history they would, of course, present that as 'God's work' as I'm sure the RCC did after the Crusades. Now it is possible that I have that wrong and both the extermination of the Canninites and the Crusades were indeed ordained by God but that is not something that would endear me to that aspect of Him.

Quote by Viscera:
I'm not sure where you are referring to (not being argumentative, don't know the reference)



I am guessing it is the story of Lot.

1
5:46 pm 01/08/2012

Viscera

I would agree that man has used "God's will" as an excuse many times. But there is a difference in the RCC saying that they interpret scripture selectively vs a prophet saying "Thus says the LORD" in that the prophet is saying they audibley heard God command this. I understand the idea that we must trust the prophet to be actually hearing this, but inj some instances, they weren't standing alone when the command came.

1
5:48 pm 01/08/2012

Viscera

Quote by Quaektem:
Now it is possible that I have that wrong and both the extermination of the Canninites and the Crusades were indeed ordained by God but that is not something that would endear me to that aspect of Him.


My thought on that is the command differs from OT to NT times. The command of the church has never been of the sword. That was commanded of the Nation of Israel, not the "church" as we know it. That is given to the state. But in OT times, they were one and the same because Israel was God's "people". In NT covenant, that is now a universal call, not a singular cultural command

0
6:15 pm 01/08/2012

tricpe

Quote by Viscera:
Who is she?

Just how important is it for your God to have a penis? Did you read the first book of Genesis lately? Did you notice that in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply...
? This is all waaaay before Eve

Quote by Viscera:
I'm not sure where you are referring to

Lot & Abraham, like Q assumed: Abraham was told to sacrifice his only son to God (and yes, I am aware of the fact that God sent an Angel to stop him from doing that), and Lot offered his virgin daughters to the horny masses in Sodom and Gomorrah...

0
9:41 pm 01/08/2012

Quaektem

Quote by tricpe:
Just how important is it for your God to have a penis?



I've read convincing arguments on both sides of the Elohim debate. By that time the singular, masculine YHWY had taken providence as the sole name of Israel's God where Elhoim is understood as a more general term (Strong's Concordance 430: 1) (plural) a) rulers, judges b) divine ones c) angels d) gods 2) (plural intensive - singular meaning) a) god, goddess b) godlike one c) works or special possessions of God d) the (true) God e) God).

0
3:10 am 02/08/2012

Viscera

Quote by tricpe:
ust how important is it for your God to have a penis? Did you read the first book of Genesis lately? Did you notice that in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply...? This is all waaaay before Eve


wow, a little argumentative aren't we. God is never referred to as a woman. The tenses in the original languages are all masculine, and the reference you cite is about mankind male and female in God's image, meaning their attributes capacity to reason etc. not that we are a physical image, as God doesn't have a body, He is spirit.

Abraham wasn't required, and Lot sinned, He should have let the Angels of death take care of those people themselves, he didn't have to do any of that. So that act is Lot's mistake, not Gods.

0
3:19 am 02/08/2012

Flee

answer my question V!!
(its above)

since gay = bad is OT, is it also mentioned in the NT? What is the criteria for deciding what parts of the OT are still valid?

Do Christians ignore OT as a whole?

0
3:25 am 02/08/2012

Flee

oops, meant to post the above in http://www.teoti.co.uk/funny-stuff/117764-chickfila.html

0
3:53 am 02/08/2012

Quaektem

Quote by Flee:
since gay = bad is OT, is it also mentioned in the NT? What is the criteria for deciding what parts of the OT are still valid?



It is mentioned in the NT, I guess the rule is if it's mentioned in the NT it's valid, if not it's outdated... V will elaborate on that I'm sure.

0
4:03 am 02/08/2012

Viscera

The OT is a shadow of what is to come. The purpose (according to those who are scholars in the field) is that the OT shows that mankind can't live up to the requirements of God's law. The NT is a new covenant. There are parts of the NT that change the situation, for example the dietary laws. They were 1) for Israel alone as any converts that joined the nation later in the OT weren't expected to keep the dietary laws ( I believe) 2) Jesus spoke to the whole issue of food making someone clean vs unclean. Matthew 15. The lesson was, the focus for the OT laws were probably for health reasons, but the people were interpreting that the food or animals made them spiritually unclean. That wasn't the case. Jesus reiterates that the wickedness of a mans heart causes him to be spiritually unclean.

Christians today use the nomenclature that "We aren't under the law, we are under grace" meaning that the law can't save us, only God's forgiveness can, and this is true. But any Christian that says the OT is no longer applicable, doesn't remember the passage that says

Quote by Matthew5:17-18:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished

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