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Lead us not into mistranslation: pope wants Lord's Prayer changed

22 comments, 375 views, posted 1:20 pm 10/12/2017 in Religion by tricpe
tricpe has 14801 posts, 6492 threads, 245 points, location: In a pair of Speedo
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Pope Francis says wording of prayer in English implies that God induces temptation – but that is Satan’s department

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tamsnod27 (5)

Comments

1
1:23 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

My.beef with religion has always been the Satan character. God could just erase him, so we don't get tempted but no.

"Come over to my house. It is awesome, but the path to it is covered in thorns."

1
2:06 pm 10/12/2017

z0phi3l

Quote by Flee:
My.beef with religion has always been the Satan character. God could just erase him, so we don't get tempted but no.

"Come over to my house. It is awesome, but the path to it is covered in thorns."



There can't be free will if there are no choices, that's the whole point of Satan, you can choose good or evil, or we're just puppets

2
3:06 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

I get the choice but do we really need an entity enticing us toward evil? The choice is still there, regardless of an active entity.

3
5:21 pm 10/12/2017

LordViscera

well, just more the chew on, Martin Luther says there are three sources of temptation, the world (our modern cultures that draw us toward the spirit of the particular age 'zeitgeist'), The flesh (the inclination we all have internally to choose selfish/ self-serving ways), and the Devil ( A personification of evil that is cruel/malicious/and willing to not only inflict harm, but revels in it)

2
5:25 pm 10/12/2017

LordViscera

One would think that the Pope, supposedly a Biblical scholar, could find out what the original Greek was, and what the meaning is. I can find it, but I guess there is a difference in motivation.
The word for "Lead"
eispherō it was used 7 times in the Bible, so it isn't a one-time event with no context

Quote by eispherō:
to bring into, in or to
to lead into


2
6:29 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

If MLK is right then that is 3 to 1. Kind of stacked against.

2
7:20 pm 10/12/2017

LordViscera

nope,

Quote by John4:4:
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
2
8:06 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

What's that mean in hard numbers?

3 to 2?

I guess LV, what I am looking for is an answer to this....

What is the need for Satan? From.gods perspective. If he/she/it has the ability to erase Satan with a thought why not do it?

Just seems to me that there is more to god than what is told in the Bible.. I get we humans can't comprehend the mind of god, but damnit, I want to

2
9:05 pm 10/12/2017

LordViscera

there is no real answer to that in scripture. My thoughts on that is, the angels were given free will, and led by Lucifer, 1/3 of them rebelled. So God could have decided to obliterate them, but what is the point of giving free will if you are going to destroy them if they choose against you (Him). Instead, they got what they wanted. They get an eternity to rule in hell than serve in heaven as John Milton summed up in Paradise Lost

2
9:06 pm 10/12/2017

LordViscera

Quote by Flee:
What's that mean in hard numbers?

3 to 2?

well, since God is the most powerful being in the universe, then God and anyone else is a majority. Satan isn't equal to God, he is a creature.

2
10:17 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

I guess it doesn't explain why they rebelled? Given 1/3 did so, that is information I would want.

2
10:18 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

I thought he gave man free will but not angels. If so that would explain why they rebelled

1
10:20 pm 10/12/2017

Flee

In your vastly more knowledgeable opinion, what do you think would happen if those 1/3 decided to ask God for forgiveness and asked to be let back into heaven?

3
12:18 am 11/12/2017

Quaektem

Quote by Flee:
What is the need for Satan? From.gods perspective. If he/she/it has the ability to erase Satan with a thought why not do it?



In my (ever so pagan) opinion, He doesn't because having Satan around is in His plan. An all-knowing God knew Satan would rebel and knew Adam would fall and in such a context it could easily be said that he created them for that purpose.

There are breadcrumbs all over the Bible pointing to God wanting things to play out a certain way and is willing to over ride free will to accomplish this. In the story of Exodus we learn that the plagues worked and before the last plague, the slaying of the firstborn, Pharaoh was about to cede to Moses yet (Exodus 9:12) "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." Why did God intervene? Perhaps it was part of the narrative, part of the structure of how he wanted his Church built. Without the Passover the sacrifice of Jesus as the Lamb of God and the accompanying message of the communion/last supper is much weaker.

That the Christian God has a 'plan' is very often cited... what the purpose of that plan is? Well perhaps to (as the Bible references) separate the wheat from the chafe. Toss the souls of his creation into mortality, test them with the winds of 'sin' and those that are solid and true enough not to be blown away are what He seeks.

Again, I'm looking at this from the outside seeking to divine the motives of deity.... he could just be playing a game of solitaire because He was board.

2
5:02 am 11/12/2017

Quaektem

Quote by Flee:
I thought he gave man free will but not angels. If so that would explain why they rebelled



But... they couldn't rebel without free will.

2
5:51 am 11/12/2017

Quaektem

Quote by Flee:
In your vastly more knowledgeable opinion, what do you think would happen if those 1/3 decided to ask God for forgiveness and asked to be let back into heaven?



In my (far less knowledgeable) opinion. He would deny them. The Book of Enoch (though certainly not cannon) describes the problems fallen angels caused to the 'plan'. Much like the Pharaoh, the 1/3 serve a purpose. Perhaps when the 'plan' has been played out...? But again, that's seeking to divine the motives of deity.

Romans 9:21-23 (KJV) 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2
11:23 am 11/12/2017

LordViscera

Quote by Flee:
In your vastly more knowledgeable opinion, what do you think would happen if those 1/3 decided to ask God for forgiveness and asked to be let back into heaven?


I would say yes

2
11:26 am 11/12/2017

LordViscera

Quote by Quaektem:


Romans 9:21-23 (KJV) 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

that is often cited as a supportive passage to the doctrine of election (God chooses who will come to faith and gives them the ability to, as a man without God's intervening grace is "dead in his sins" and a dead man can't revive himself)


4
5:12 pm 12/12/2017

Suckapuncha

Quote by LordViscera:
Quote by Flee:
In your vastly more knowledgeable opinion, what do you think would happen if those 1/3 decided to ask God for forgiveness and asked to be let back into heaven?

I would say yes

Fallen angels cannot be redeemed, because they are not under the curse of death:

Quote:
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.


4
6:24 pm 12/12/2017

LordViscera

awesome, thanks for the reference Heb 2:14

2
1:15 am 13/12/2017

HariSeldon

Quote by z0phi3l:
Quote by Flee:
My.beef with religion has always been the Satan character. God could just erase him, so we don't get tempted but no.

"Come over to my house. It is awesome, but the path to it is covered in thorns."


There can't be free will if there are no choices, that's the whole point of Satan, you can choose good or evil, or we're just puppets

Sometimes there is no free will because God wants an excuse to kill millions of people and ruin the lives of those who survive:

Exodus 7:3-4 says, “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my people the Israelites.”

1
6:26 am 13/12/2017

tricpe

Free will is not mentioned once in the HB, it's a man-made concept (best to my knowledge, I haven't read the Book in ages)

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